Yes but who presumes to make these "rules"?
That is what I am saying. Who has the hubris to come here or anywhere else and say "What
*I* say is right and You People Are Wrong/Are Not 'Real' Letterboxers because you don't fit
My Standards". Hubris is certainly the word I would use in that instance.
Making suggestions and giving your own opinion is certainly a good thing -- even if it's to
disagree and say "this is not for me.". Presuming to make oneself the Letterbox Police is --
in my opinion -- arrogant and extremely unattractive. "Because this is not for me, is is
wrong and bad for anyone across the board"? Seriously.
I personally read many of the wonderful pages of information available on both atlas quest
and on LB.org before I ever went out looking. Those essays myade letterboxing a fun and
welcoming hobby. They were pretty easy to read. You don';t have to be a rocket scientist
to figure them out. LBing seemed like fun. And then one reads the posts of certain people
on these email lists and it's a complete turn off to the people involved.
Yes, indeed, if you want to play basketball, you must dribble. But don't tell me if I don't
dribble with my right hand or if I dribble with both hands alternately that I am "not a real
letterboxer" or I am "bad." And honestly, to say "no one should dribble like that"??? My
goodness they ARE "dribbling", to use your analogy, therefore they are playing basketball.
I do agree with the statement that if one says "do it however you want" then one should
not then complain if people are not being conscientious about rehiding, etc. I personally
haven't made any such complaints. I think my main complaint thus far has been that
people should not bring their dogs with them to a cemetary, which IMO applies to all
people, not just letterboxers. However, I don;t recall the poster of the 50+ boxes
accomplishment telling anyone that she was careless or cut corners in her hiding and
finding -- just a lot of assumptions that this must be how she did it, and a lot of
handslapping.
Again -- if YOU don't like it or want to do it then say so. And say why. Give that
information out. And treat people respectfully like adults -- as in, give them the
information and and let them make their decisions. IN my opinion, not doing so treats us
all like misbehaving 3 yr olds who need their hands slapped, and is disrespectful. I'm not
in kindergarten any more and neither is anyone else here, so let's not pretend like anyone
here is.
Freelance Mystic
> I know many people on this list are keen on the "no rules" mantra, but there are rules.
There may be a wide range of interpretation and customization to play how best suits your
tastes, but there are rules just as there is in any other activity. If you don't like dribbling a
ball down the basketball court, you don't play basketball -- it is not an option to just do
your own thing and run with the ball in hand instead. If we want people to "play right" and
rehide the boxes well, encouraging power boxing and idolizing those who amass huge
quantities of finds in a short amount of time is double talk.
>
> While one of the biggest complaints of letterbox planters is careless boxers and missing
boxes, one of the biggest complaints of new letterboxers is the lack of direction. Many
feel they are left to figure it out on their own and read the Yahoo! groups looking for
examples. Imagine being a new letterboxer and seeing that those finding 50+ boxes in a
single afternoon are lauded for their great accomplishments. It would be conceivable to
think that this is then the behavior they would try to emulate.
>
> It seems to me that anyone preaching "do it however you want to" has no business
complaining when people are just out there doing their own thing and not being as
conscientious about being discreet and rehiding boxes as we would hope.
save us all from the LB police
7 messages in this thread |
Started on 2006-11-21
save us all from the LB police
From: pell_lake_girl (mishiekins@prodigy.net) |
Date: 2006-11-21 17:19:54 UTC
Re: save us all from the LB police
From: Pungent Bob (PungentBob@HotPOP.com) |
Date: 2006-11-21 18:46:14 UTC
Wow. Take a deep breath and calm down. I don't think anyone has said
that you shouldn't be allowed to find 50 boxes in an short afternoon,
they've only questioned whether it is even possible to do so.
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "pell_lake_girl"
wrote:
rant deleted
that you shouldn't be allowed to find 50 boxes in an short afternoon,
they've only questioned whether it is even possible to do so.
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "pell_lake_girl"
rant deleted
RE: [LbNA] save us all from the LB police
From: xxxxxxxx (BrighidFarm@comcast.net) |
Date: 2006-11-21 12:51:17 UTC-06:00
By your logic, however, why do you feel dogs don't belong in cemeteries? Or
why shouldn't children hang off elephant statues if the parents are fine
with it?
IF and only IF there's a sign posted by cemetery management that states "No
Dogs Allowed" should you then have any right to complain about dogs in
cemeteries. Who are you to be telling others how they should or shouldn't
act in a cemetery beyond what cemetery rules are actually decreed by that
particular cemetery's management?
It's OK for you to set yourself up as a judge in one circumstance but you're
upset if you feel others are setting themselves up to judge in a different
circumstance?
Nobody who has posted has made any complaints about anything that differ in
any style from the complaints you've made about other issues. It possibly
just seems different to you because it's somebody other than you doing the
complaining. Nobody has treated anyone like a 3 year old any more than you
have.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
~~ Mosey ~~
-----Original Message-----
From: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of pell_lake_girl
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 11:20 AM
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [LbNA] save us all from the LB police
Yes but who presumes to make these "rules"?
I do agree with the statement that if one says "do it however you want" then
one should
not then complain if people are not being conscientious about rehiding, etc.
I personally
haven't made any such complaints. I think my main complaint thus far has
been that
people should not bring their dogs with them to a cemetary, which IMO
applies to all
people, not just letterboxers. However, I don;t recall the poster of the 50+
boxes
accomplishment telling anyone that she was careless or cut corners in her
hiding and
finding -- just a lot of assumptions that this must be how she did it, and a
lot of
handslapping.
Again -- if YOU don't like it or want to do it then say so. And say why.
Give that
information out. And treat people respectfully like adults -- as in, give
them the
information and and let them make their decisions. IN my opinion, not doing
so treats us
all like misbehaving 3 yr olds who need their hands slapped, and is
disrespectful. I'm not
in kindergarten any more and neither is anyone else here, so let's not
pretend like anyone
here is.
Freelance Mystic
why shouldn't children hang off elephant statues if the parents are fine
with it?
IF and only IF there's a sign posted by cemetery management that states "No
Dogs Allowed" should you then have any right to complain about dogs in
cemeteries. Who are you to be telling others how they should or shouldn't
act in a cemetery beyond what cemetery rules are actually decreed by that
particular cemetery's management?
It's OK for you to set yourself up as a judge in one circumstance but you're
upset if you feel others are setting themselves up to judge in a different
circumstance?
Nobody who has posted has made any complaints about anything that differ in
any style from the complaints you've made about other issues. It possibly
just seems different to you because it's somebody other than you doing the
complaining. Nobody has treated anyone like a 3 year old any more than you
have.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
~~ Mosey ~~
-----Original Message-----
From: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of pell_lake_girl
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 11:20 AM
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [LbNA] save us all from the LB police
Yes but who presumes to make these "rules"?
I do agree with the statement that if one says "do it however you want" then
one should
not then complain if people are not being conscientious about rehiding, etc.
I personally
haven't made any such complaints. I think my main complaint thus far has
been that
people should not bring their dogs with them to a cemetary, which IMO
applies to all
people, not just letterboxers. However, I don;t recall the poster of the 50+
boxes
accomplishment telling anyone that she was careless or cut corners in her
hiding and
finding -- just a lot of assumptions that this must be how she did it, and a
lot of
handslapping.
Again -- if YOU don't like it or want to do it then say so. And say why.
Give that
information out. And treat people respectfully like adults -- as in, give
them the
information and and let them make their decisions. IN my opinion, not doing
so treats us
all like misbehaving 3 yr olds who need their hands slapped, and is
disrespectful. I'm not
in kindergarten any more and neither is anyone else here, so let's not
pretend like anyone
here is.
Freelance Mystic
Re: [LbNA] Re: save us all from the LB police
From: david baril (gingerbreadjunk@yahoo.com) |
Date: 2006-11-21 11:20:14 UTC-08:00
no, no, it was questioned that if you find 50 boxes in 1 day, are you replanting them properly. coming off as if you shouldn't attempt to find 50 in a day. this is how i took it.
oh look, a chipmunk chewing on a letterbox!
david (team new hampshire)
http://teamnewhampshire.blogspot.com
Pungent Bob wrote:
Wow. Take a deep breath and calm down. I don't think anyone has said
that you shouldn't be allowed to find 50 boxes in an short afternoon,
they've only questioned whether it is even possible to do so.
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "pell_lake_girl"
wrote:
rant deleted
---------------------------------
Sponsored Link
Rates near 39yr lows. $510,000 Loan for $1698/mo - Calculate new house payment
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
oh look, a chipmunk chewing on a letterbox!
david (team new hampshire)
http://teamnewhampshire.blogspot.com
Pungent Bob
Wow. Take a deep breath and calm down. I don't think anyone has said
that you shouldn't be allowed to find 50 boxes in an short afternoon,
they've only questioned whether it is even possible to do so.
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "pell_lake_girl"
rant deleted
---------------------------------
Sponsored Link
Rates near 39yr lows. $510,000 Loan for $1698/mo - Calculate new house payment
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [LbNA] save us all from the LB police
From: pell_lake_girl (mishiekins@prodigy.net) |
Date: 2006-11-21 21:52:29 UTC
People can do whatever they want. *I* personally feel it's quite disrespectful of the dead.
No where did I say these folks were not "real" letterboxers just bc they don't know how to
treat cemetraries respectfully. Did I?
Actuially... I don't recall that I did tell those people how to behave. Did I? Did I say I walked
up to them or said a thing? Were they on here talking about hteir activities? Nope, I don't
recall so. Did I advocate what was recently posted on one of these lists -- looking up the
family name [which they wrote in the logbook and their location] so I could tell people to
go chase afte rhtem and give them grief.
No, I really don't recall doing so. Sorry, your logic does not follow. The 2 things are not
comparable at all. Actually, I believe I made quite surte to specify that while I did not enjoy
watching people walking their dogs in the cemetary and letting their children climb on the
headstones, that they did follow "letterboxing rules" in terms of hiding the boxes very well
and resealing all the bags very well.
Oh and by the way, no signage needs to be posted at the entrance to official Conservation
Areas [of which there were 2 at this location] -- walking pets is against the law in those
areas. And lack of signage does not negate said law.
Again, your logic is faulty. I might think personally they are rude people but I certainly
didn't say anything like that they had broken some letterboxing rules.
Freelance Mystic
>
> By your logic, however, why do you feel dogs don't belong in cemeteries? Or
> why shouldn't children hang off elephant statues if the parents are fine
> with it?
>
> IF and only IF there's a sign posted by cemetery management that states "No
> Dogs Allowed" should you then have any right to complain about dogs in
> cemeteries. Who are you to be telling others how they should or shouldn't
> act in a cemetery beyond what cemetery rules are actually decreed by that
> particular cemetery's management?
>
> It's OK for you to set yourself up as a judge in one circumstance but you're
> upset if you feel others are setting themselves up to judge in a different
> circumstance?
>
> Nobody who has posted has made any complaints about anything that differ in
> any style from the complaints you've made about other issues. It possibly
> just seems different to you because it's somebody other than you doing the
> complaining. Nobody has treated anyone like a 3 year old any more than you
> have.
>
> Pot. Kettle. Black.
>
> ~~ Mosey ~~
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of pell_lake_girl
> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 11:20 AM
> To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [LbNA] save us all from the LB police
>
>
> Yes but who presumes to make these "rules"?
>
>
>
> I do agree with the statement that if one says "do it however you want" then
> one should
> not then complain if people are not being conscientious about rehiding, etc.
> I personally
> haven't made any such complaints. I think my main complaint thus far has
> been that
> people should not bring their dogs with them to a cemetary, which IMO
> applies to all
> people, not just letterboxers. However, I don;t recall the poster of the 50+
> boxes
> accomplishment telling anyone that she was careless or cut corners in her
> hiding and
> finding -- just a lot of assumptions that this must be how she did it, and a
> lot of
> handslapping.
>
> Again -- if YOU don't like it or want to do it then say so. And say why.
> Give that
> information out. And treat people respectfully like adults -- as in, give
> them the
> information and and let them make their decisions. IN my opinion, not doing
> so treats us
> all like misbehaving 3 yr olds who need their hands slapped, and is
> disrespectful. I'm not
> in kindergarten any more and neither is anyone else here, so let's not
> pretend like anyone
> here is.
>
> Freelance Mystic
>
No where did I say these folks were not "real" letterboxers just bc they don't know how to
treat cemetraries respectfully. Did I?
Actuially... I don't recall that I did tell those people how to behave. Did I? Did I say I walked
up to them or said a thing? Were they on here talking about hteir activities? Nope, I don't
recall so. Did I advocate what was recently posted on one of these lists -- looking up the
family name [which they wrote in the logbook and their location] so I could tell people to
go chase afte rhtem and give them grief.
No, I really don't recall doing so. Sorry, your logic does not follow. The 2 things are not
comparable at all. Actually, I believe I made quite surte to specify that while I did not enjoy
watching people walking their dogs in the cemetary and letting their children climb on the
headstones, that they did follow "letterboxing rules" in terms of hiding the boxes very well
and resealing all the bags very well.
Oh and by the way, no signage needs to be posted at the entrance to official Conservation
Areas [of which there were 2 at this location] -- walking pets is against the law in those
areas. And lack of signage does not negate said law.
Again, your logic is faulty. I might think personally they are rude people but I certainly
didn't say anything like that they had broken some letterboxing rules.
Freelance Mystic
>
> By your logic, however, why do you feel dogs don't belong in cemeteries? Or
> why shouldn't children hang off elephant statues if the parents are fine
> with it?
>
> IF and only IF there's a sign posted by cemetery management that states "No
> Dogs Allowed" should you then have any right to complain about dogs in
> cemeteries. Who are you to be telling others how they should or shouldn't
> act in a cemetery beyond what cemetery rules are actually decreed by that
> particular cemetery's management?
>
> It's OK for you to set yourself up as a judge in one circumstance but you're
> upset if you feel others are setting themselves up to judge in a different
> circumstance?
>
> Nobody who has posted has made any complaints about anything that differ in
> any style from the complaints you've made about other issues. It possibly
> just seems different to you because it's somebody other than you doing the
> complaining. Nobody has treated anyone like a 3 year old any more than you
> have.
>
> Pot. Kettle. Black.
>
> ~~ Mosey ~~
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of pell_lake_girl
> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 11:20 AM
> To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [LbNA] save us all from the LB police
>
>
> Yes but who presumes to make these "rules"?
>
>
>
> I do agree with the statement that if one says "do it however you want" then
> one should
> not then complain if people are not being conscientious about rehiding, etc.
> I personally
> haven't made any such complaints. I think my main complaint thus far has
> been that
> people should not bring their dogs with them to a cemetary, which IMO
> applies to all
> people, not just letterboxers. However, I don;t recall the poster of the 50+
> boxes
> accomplishment telling anyone that she was careless or cut corners in her
> hiding and
> finding -- just a lot of assumptions that this must be how she did it, and a
> lot of
> handslapping.
>
> Again -- if YOU don't like it or want to do it then say so. And say why.
> Give that
> information out. And treat people respectfully like adults -- as in, give
> them the
> information and and let them make their decisions. IN my opinion, not doing
> so treats us
> all like misbehaving 3 yr olds who need their hands slapped, and is
> disrespectful. I'm not
> in kindergarten any more and neither is anyone else here, so let's not
> pretend like anyone
> here is.
>
> Freelance Mystic
>
RE: [LbNA] save us all from the LB police
From: xxxxxxxx (BrighidFarm@comcast.net) |
Date: 2006-11-21 18:51:43 UTC-06:00
Well, by complaining about people who have cemetery etiquette that's not
similar to yours, you're implying that they should be following *your* ideas
pertaining to proper etiquette. You're accusing folks of creating
letterboxing rules where you perceive there should be none, yet you're
creating cemetery rules where others may perceive there to be none.
Otherwise, why complain about the people who weren't acting as you expected
them to? By your own definition, there was nothing rude about what they
were doing, since there are no "rules" regarding what they were doing. How
could they have been doing something rude if there were no "social rules",
either express or implied, to follow?
You're absolutely right, you didn't complain to their face. You came on a
list with, what, 3000 people, to rant about them. How do you know they're
not subscribers to the list? If you didn't have the courage to discuss it
with them to their face, why is complaining about it on the list proper
behavior? Why not have a quiet, reasonable, rational discussion with the
people you were upset with? But then, you would have been quoting *your*
cemetery rules at them. And they might have told you that there were no
rules and to go away and get out of their face.
I guess I just feel that it's much more honest to let people know what
you're feeling right to their face instead of runnin' 'round ranting about
them behind their back if you've got the people right in front of you.
I wasn't discussing the necessity of signs in conservation areas. I didn't
once mention conservation areas. I was discussing your loathing for how
others behave in cemeteries. You can call it your "opinion" but that's mere
semantics. By complaining about someone's activities, you're saying they
should conform to your ideas of what their behavior should be, thereby
attempting to create rules for people to follow. Maybe not written rules,
maybe not legal rules, but nonetheless you're making rules you expect people
to follow. Or else you wouldn't be complaining. If they were acting in the
way that *you* thought appropriate, then you wouldn't have considered them
rude. So whether the "rules" were written out or were merely in your head,
you were still expecting them to follow some "rules."
Society has all sorts of "rules", either social or legal, express or
implied, or society wouldn't exist. Letterboxing is no different. And
whether we want to admit "rules" or not is just semantics. If we didn't
attempt to conform to some rules, we'd see much more than just a bit of
what's currently happening with missing and destroyed boxes.
You've placed one box so far out in the wild and that's only been out there
less than a week. Maybe as you place more boxes and get to do the
maintenance involved or get notified by finders that they've found a box of
yours in serious disrepair and took it upon themselves to graciously do the
maintenance *for* you, you'll become a little alarmed also when somebody
might brag about powerboxing but doesn't stress the severe responsibility
needed to pull it off properly. It kind of reminds me of the mass media
articles out there, stressing all the fun but none of the responsibilities.
I feel it's incumbent on the more seasoned boxers to do both or it's going
to turn into a real mess out there.
Maybe I see it sort of like auto racing. A couple of guys in a couple of
hot cars in the middle of the night on a totally deserted backcountry road
probably stand a real good chance of pulling off a drag race with few, if
any, rules other than what the two of 'em just agree to between themselves
at the spur of the moment. The Indy 500? NASCAR? It gets a little more
complicated. There are just a whole lot more players out there now in
boxing. Acknowledging a need for some common etiquette becomes a little
more important. And there's nothing wrong with the seasoned boxers stepping
up to the plate.
~~ Mosey ~~
-----Original Message-----
From: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of pell_lake_girl
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 3:52 PM
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [LbNA] save us all from the LB police
People can do whatever they want. *I* personally feel it's quite
disrespectful of the dead.
No where did I say these folks were not "real" letterboxers just bc they
don't know how to
treat cemetraries respectfully. Did I?
Actuially... I don't recall that I did tell those people how to behave. Did
I? Did I say I walked
up to them or said a thing? Were they on here talking about hteir
activities? Nope, I don't
recall so. Did I advocate what was recently posted on one of these lists --
looking up the
family name [which they wrote in the logbook and their location] so I could
tell people to
go chase afte rhtem and give them grief.
No, I really don't recall doing so. Sorry, your logic does not follow. The 2
things are not
comparable at all. Actually, I believe I made quite surte to specify that
while I did not enjoy
watching people walking their dogs in the cemetary and letting their
children climb on the
headstones, that they did follow "letterboxing rules" in terms of hiding the
boxes very well
and resealing all the bags very well.
Oh and by the way, no signage needs to be posted at the entrance to official
Conservation
Areas [of which there were 2 at this location] -- walking pets is against
the law in those
areas. And lack of signage does not negate said law.
Again, your logic is faulty. I might think personally they are rude people
but I certainly
didn't say anything like that they had broken some letterboxing rules.
Freelance Mystic
>
> By your logic, however, why do you feel dogs don't belong in cemeteries?
Or
> why shouldn't children hang off elephant statues if the parents are fine
> with it?
>
> IF and only IF there's a sign posted by cemetery management that states
"No
> Dogs Allowed" should you then have any right to complain about dogs in
> cemeteries. Who are you to be telling others how they should or shouldn't
> act in a cemetery beyond what cemetery rules are actually decreed by that
> particular cemetery's management?
>
> It's OK for you to set yourself up as a judge in one circumstance but
you're
> upset if you feel others are setting themselves up to judge in a different
> circumstance?
>
> Nobody who has posted has made any complaints about anything that differ
in
> any style from the complaints you've made about other issues. It possibly
> just seems different to you because it's somebody other than you doing the
> complaining. Nobody has treated anyone like a 3 year old any more than
you
> have.
>
> Pot. Kettle. Black.
>
> ~~ Mosey ~~
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of pell_lake_girl
> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 11:20 AM
> To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [LbNA] save us all from the LB police
>
>
> Yes but who presumes to make these "rules"?
>
>
>
> I do agree with the statement that if one says "do it however you want"
then
> one should
> not then complain if people are not being conscientious about rehiding,
etc.
> I personally
> haven't made any such complaints. I think my main complaint thus far has
> been that
> people should not bring their dogs with them to a cemetary, which IMO
> applies to all
> people, not just letterboxers. However, I don;t recall the poster of the
50+
> boxes
> accomplishment telling anyone that she was careless or cut corners in her
> hiding and
> finding -- just a lot of assumptions that this must be how she did it, and
a
> lot of
> handslapping.
>
> Again -- if YOU don't like it or want to do it then say so. And say why.
> Give that
> information out. And treat people respectfully like adults -- as in, give
> them the
> information and and let them make their decisions. IN my opinion, not
doing
> so treats us
> all like misbehaving 3 yr olds who need their hands slapped, and is
> disrespectful. I'm not
> in kindergarten any more and neither is anyone else here, so let's not
> pretend like anyone
> here is.
>
> Freelance Mystic
>
Yahoo! Groups Links
similar to yours, you're implying that they should be following *your* ideas
pertaining to proper etiquette. You're accusing folks of creating
letterboxing rules where you perceive there should be none, yet you're
creating cemetery rules where others may perceive there to be none.
Otherwise, why complain about the people who weren't acting as you expected
them to? By your own definition, there was nothing rude about what they
were doing, since there are no "rules" regarding what they were doing. How
could they have been doing something rude if there were no "social rules",
either express or implied, to follow?
You're absolutely right, you didn't complain to their face. You came on a
list with, what, 3000 people, to rant about them. How do you know they're
not subscribers to the list? If you didn't have the courage to discuss it
with them to their face, why is complaining about it on the list proper
behavior? Why not have a quiet, reasonable, rational discussion with the
people you were upset with? But then, you would have been quoting *your*
cemetery rules at them. And they might have told you that there were no
rules and to go away and get out of their face.
I guess I just feel that it's much more honest to let people know what
you're feeling right to their face instead of runnin' 'round ranting about
them behind their back if you've got the people right in front of you.
I wasn't discussing the necessity of signs in conservation areas. I didn't
once mention conservation areas. I was discussing your loathing for how
others behave in cemeteries. You can call it your "opinion" but that's mere
semantics. By complaining about someone's activities, you're saying they
should conform to your ideas of what their behavior should be, thereby
attempting to create rules for people to follow. Maybe not written rules,
maybe not legal rules, but nonetheless you're making rules you expect people
to follow. Or else you wouldn't be complaining. If they were acting in the
way that *you* thought appropriate, then you wouldn't have considered them
rude. So whether the "rules" were written out or were merely in your head,
you were still expecting them to follow some "rules."
Society has all sorts of "rules", either social or legal, express or
implied, or society wouldn't exist. Letterboxing is no different. And
whether we want to admit "rules" or not is just semantics. If we didn't
attempt to conform to some rules, we'd see much more than just a bit of
what's currently happening with missing and destroyed boxes.
You've placed one box so far out in the wild and that's only been out there
less than a week. Maybe as you place more boxes and get to do the
maintenance involved or get notified by finders that they've found a box of
yours in serious disrepair and took it upon themselves to graciously do the
maintenance *for* you, you'll become a little alarmed also when somebody
might brag about powerboxing but doesn't stress the severe responsibility
needed to pull it off properly. It kind of reminds me of the mass media
articles out there, stressing all the fun but none of the responsibilities.
I feel it's incumbent on the more seasoned boxers to do both or it's going
to turn into a real mess out there.
Maybe I see it sort of like auto racing. A couple of guys in a couple of
hot cars in the middle of the night on a totally deserted backcountry road
probably stand a real good chance of pulling off a drag race with few, if
any, rules other than what the two of 'em just agree to between themselves
at the spur of the moment. The Indy 500? NASCAR? It gets a little more
complicated. There are just a whole lot more players out there now in
boxing. Acknowledging a need for some common etiquette becomes a little
more important. And there's nothing wrong with the seasoned boxers stepping
up to the plate.
~~ Mosey ~~
-----Original Message-----
From: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of pell_lake_girl
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 3:52 PM
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [LbNA] save us all from the LB police
People can do whatever they want. *I* personally feel it's quite
disrespectful of the dead.
No where did I say these folks were not "real" letterboxers just bc they
don't know how to
treat cemetraries respectfully. Did I?
Actuially... I don't recall that I did tell those people how to behave. Did
I? Did I say I walked
up to them or said a thing? Were they on here talking about hteir
activities? Nope, I don't
recall so. Did I advocate what was recently posted on one of these lists --
looking up the
family name [which they wrote in the logbook and their location] so I could
tell people to
go chase afte rhtem and give them grief.
No, I really don't recall doing so. Sorry, your logic does not follow. The 2
things are not
comparable at all. Actually, I believe I made quite surte to specify that
while I did not enjoy
watching people walking their dogs in the cemetary and letting their
children climb on the
headstones, that they did follow "letterboxing rules" in terms of hiding the
boxes very well
and resealing all the bags very well.
Oh and by the way, no signage needs to be posted at the entrance to official
Conservation
Areas [of which there were 2 at this location] -- walking pets is against
the law in those
areas. And lack of signage does not negate said law.
Again, your logic is faulty. I might think personally they are rude people
but I certainly
didn't say anything like that they had broken some letterboxing rules.
Freelance Mystic
>
> By your logic, however, why do you feel dogs don't belong in cemeteries?
Or
> why shouldn't children hang off elephant statues if the parents are fine
> with it?
>
> IF and only IF there's a sign posted by cemetery management that states
"No
> Dogs Allowed" should you then have any right to complain about dogs in
> cemeteries. Who are you to be telling others how they should or shouldn't
> act in a cemetery beyond what cemetery rules are actually decreed by that
> particular cemetery's management?
>
> It's OK for you to set yourself up as a judge in one circumstance but
you're
> upset if you feel others are setting themselves up to judge in a different
> circumstance?
>
> Nobody who has posted has made any complaints about anything that differ
in
> any style from the complaints you've made about other issues. It possibly
> just seems different to you because it's somebody other than you doing the
> complaining. Nobody has treated anyone like a 3 year old any more than
you
> have.
>
> Pot. Kettle. Black.
>
> ~~ Mosey ~~
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of pell_lake_girl
> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 11:20 AM
> To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [LbNA] save us all from the LB police
>
>
> Yes but who presumes to make these "rules"?
>
>
>
> I do agree with the statement that if one says "do it however you want"
then
> one should
> not then complain if people are not being conscientious about rehiding,
etc.
> I personally
> haven't made any such complaints. I think my main complaint thus far has
> been that
> people should not bring their dogs with them to a cemetary, which IMO
> applies to all
> people, not just letterboxers. However, I don;t recall the poster of the
50+
> boxes
> accomplishment telling anyone that she was careless or cut corners in her
> hiding and
> finding -- just a lot of assumptions that this must be how she did it, and
a
> lot of
> handslapping.
>
> Again -- if YOU don't like it or want to do it then say so. And say why.
> Give that
> information out. And treat people respectfully like adults -- as in, give
> them the
> information and and let them make their decisions. IN my opinion, not
doing
> so treats us
> all like misbehaving 3 yr olds who need their hands slapped, and is
> disrespectful. I'm not
> in kindergarten any more and neither is anyone else here, so let's not
> pretend like anyone
> here is.
>
> Freelance Mystic
>
Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [LbNA] save us all from the LB police
From: SpringChick (letterbox@comcast.net) |
Date: 2006-11-21 21:36:55 UTC-05:00
Not once did I say that *my* way was right or that I had to be the one making the rules, only that like it or not, there are rules and those who feel that everyone should just be able to do it their own way are only contributing to the problem of carelessness, poor rehiding, etc. There were *rules* to this game long before I started letterboxing and I personally have little problem playing within that framework. When I started letterboxing I felt no need to expand or change the game to make it more of what *I* personally wanted it to be and I still don't. I suppose if I had come upon letterboxing and it didn't seem like something that would fit my interests, I would have just moved on rather than trying to morph it into something more suitable for me.
Although I questioned the physical possibility of stamping into 75 boxes within a single, short afternoon (i.e. a box every 5 minutes), I did not claim it to be impossible nor did I accuse this person of being careless. Having met her and knowing her experience, I personally don't doubt her conscientiousness in rehiding boxes. My concern was that promoting this type of boxing and holding it up as something for others to strive for is asking for problems because haste does often foster carelessness, particularly if a person is relatively inexperienced in the first place.
I did not presume to make myself the letterboxing police (I believe you did that when you started a thread with that as the subject), nor did I resort to calling anyone names. I also do not recall claiming that anyone was not a *real* letterboxer because they don't fit some standard, mine or anyone else's.
Actually, in my statement,
"And if you do happen to be one of those folks for whom it is a competitive thing and numbers really are all that matter to you, please don't encourage this or hold it up as a goal for new letterboxers."
I acknowledged that for some, numbers are the game and did not call them names or denounce their membership in the letterboxing club for thinking that way. I simply asked politely that this not be held up as the norm or as a goal for new letterboxers. If you want people to do it right (i.e. please be discreet and take the time to rehide my box carefully), you have to promote this as the standard, not encourage behavior that lends itself to the very thing you are trying to avoid.
SpringChick
----- Original Message -----
From: pell_lake_girl
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: [LbNA] save us all from the LB police
Yes but who presumes to make these "rules"?
That is what I am saying. Who has the hubris to come here or anywhere else and say "What
*I* say is right and You People Are Wrong/Are Not 'Real' Letterboxers because you don't fit
My Standards". Hubris is certainly the word I would use in that instance.
Making suggestions and giving your own opinion is certainly a good thing -- even if it's to
disagree and say "this is not for me.". Presuming to make oneself the Letterbox Police is --
in my opinion -- arrogant and extremely unattractive. "Because this is not for me, is is
wrong and bad for anyone across the board"? Seriously.
I personally read many of the wonderful pages of information available on both atlas quest
and on LB.org before I ever went out looking. Those essays myade letterboxing a fun and
welcoming hobby. They were pretty easy to read. You don';t have to be a rocket scientist
to figure them out. LBing seemed like fun. And then one reads the posts of certain people
on these email lists and it's a complete turn off to the people involved.
Yes, indeed, if you want to play basketball, you must dribble. But don't tell me if I don't
dribble with my right hand or if I dribble with both hands alternately that I am "not a real
letterboxer" or I am "bad." And honestly, to say "no one should dribble like that"??? My
goodness they ARE "dribbling", to use your analogy, therefore they are playing basketball.
I do agree with the statement that if one says "do it however you want" then one should
not then complain if people are not being conscientious about rehiding, etc. I personally
haven't made any such complaints. I think my main complaint thus far has been that
people should not bring their dogs with them to a cemetary, which IMO applies to all
people, not just letterboxers. However, I don;t recall the poster of the 50+ boxes
accomplishment telling anyone that she was careless or cut corners in her hiding and
finding -- just a lot of assumptions that this must be how she did it, and a lot of
handslapping.
Again -- if YOU don't like it or want to do it then say so. And say why. Give that
information out. And treat people respectfully like adults -- as in, give them the
information and and let them make their decisions. IN my opinion, not doing so treats us
all like misbehaving 3 yr olds who need their hands slapped, and is disrespectful. I'm not
in kindergarten any more and neither is anyone else here, so let's not pretend like anyone
here is.
Freelance Mystic
> I know many people on this list are keen on the "no rules" mantra, but there are rules.
There may be a wide range of interpretation and customization to play how best suits your
tastes, but there are rules just as there is in any other activity. If you don't like dribbling a
ball down the basketball court, you don't play basketball -- it is not an option to just do
your own thing and run with the ball in hand instead. If we want people to "play right" and
rehide the boxes well, encouraging power boxing and idolizing those who amass huge
quantities of finds in a short amount of time is double talk.
>
> While one of the biggest complaints of letterbox planters is careless boxers and missing
boxes, one of the biggest complaints of new letterboxers is the lack of direction. Many
feel they are left to figure it out on their own and read the Yahoo! groups looking for
examples. Imagine being a new letterboxer and seeing that those finding 50+ boxes in a
single afternoon are lauded for their great accomplishments. It would be conceivable to
think that this is then the behavior they would try to emulate.
>
> It seems to me that anyone preaching "do it however you want to" has no business
complaining when people are just out there doing their own thing and not being as
conscientious about being discreet and rehiding boxes as we would hope.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Although I questioned the physical possibility of stamping into 75 boxes within a single, short afternoon (i.e. a box every 5 minutes), I did not claim it to be impossible nor did I accuse this person of being careless. Having met her and knowing her experience, I personally don't doubt her conscientiousness in rehiding boxes. My concern was that promoting this type of boxing and holding it up as something for others to strive for is asking for problems because haste does often foster carelessness, particularly if a person is relatively inexperienced in the first place.
I did not presume to make myself the letterboxing police (I believe you did that when you started a thread with that as the subject), nor did I resort to calling anyone names. I also do not recall claiming that anyone was not a *real* letterboxer because they don't fit some standard, mine or anyone else's.
Actually, in my statement,
"And if you do happen to be one of those folks for whom it is a competitive thing and numbers really are all that matter to you, please don't encourage this or hold it up as a goal for new letterboxers."
I acknowledged that for some, numbers are the game and did not call them names or denounce their membership in the letterboxing club for thinking that way. I simply asked politely that this not be held up as the norm or as a goal for new letterboxers. If you want people to do it right (i.e. please be discreet and take the time to rehide my box carefully), you have to promote this as the standard, not encourage behavior that lends itself to the very thing you are trying to avoid.
SpringChick
----- Original Message -----
From: pell_lake_girl
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: [LbNA] save us all from the LB police
Yes but who presumes to make these "rules"?
That is what I am saying. Who has the hubris to come here or anywhere else and say "What
*I* say is right and You People Are Wrong/Are Not 'Real' Letterboxers because you don't fit
My Standards". Hubris is certainly the word I would use in that instance.
Making suggestions and giving your own opinion is certainly a good thing -- even if it's to
disagree and say "this is not for me.". Presuming to make oneself the Letterbox Police is --
in my opinion -- arrogant and extremely unattractive. "Because this is not for me, is is
wrong and bad for anyone across the board"? Seriously.
I personally read many of the wonderful pages of information available on both atlas quest
and on LB.org before I ever went out looking. Those essays myade letterboxing a fun and
welcoming hobby. They were pretty easy to read. You don';t have to be a rocket scientist
to figure them out. LBing seemed like fun. And then one reads the posts of certain people
on these email lists and it's a complete turn off to the people involved.
Yes, indeed, if you want to play basketball, you must dribble. But don't tell me if I don't
dribble with my right hand or if I dribble with both hands alternately that I am "not a real
letterboxer" or I am "bad." And honestly, to say "no one should dribble like that"??? My
goodness they ARE "dribbling", to use your analogy, therefore they are playing basketball.
I do agree with the statement that if one says "do it however you want" then one should
not then complain if people are not being conscientious about rehiding, etc. I personally
haven't made any such complaints. I think my main complaint thus far has been that
people should not bring their dogs with them to a cemetary, which IMO applies to all
people, not just letterboxers. However, I don;t recall the poster of the 50+ boxes
accomplishment telling anyone that she was careless or cut corners in her hiding and
finding -- just a lot of assumptions that this must be how she did it, and a lot of
handslapping.
Again -- if YOU don't like it or want to do it then say so. And say why. Give that
information out. And treat people respectfully like adults -- as in, give them the
information and and let them make their decisions. IN my opinion, not doing so treats us
all like misbehaving 3 yr olds who need their hands slapped, and is disrespectful. I'm not
in kindergarten any more and neither is anyone else here, so let's not pretend like anyone
here is.
Freelance Mystic
> I know many people on this list are keen on the "no rules" mantra, but there are rules.
There may be a wide range of interpretation and customization to play how best suits your
tastes, but there are rules just as there is in any other activity. If you don't like dribbling a
ball down the basketball court, you don't play basketball -- it is not an option to just do
your own thing and run with the ball in hand instead. If we want people to "play right" and
rehide the boxes well, encouraging power boxing and idolizing those who amass huge
quantities of finds in a short amount of time is double talk.
>
> While one of the biggest complaints of letterbox planters is careless boxers and missing
boxes, one of the biggest complaints of new letterboxers is the lack of direction. Many
feel they are left to figure it out on their own and read the Yahoo! groups looking for
examples. Imagine being a new letterboxer and seeing that those finding 50+ boxes in a
single afternoon are lauded for their great accomplishments. It would be conceivable to
think that this is then the behavior they would try to emulate.
>
> It seems to me that anyone preaching "do it however you want to" has no business
complaining when people are just out there doing their own thing and not being as
conscientious about being discreet and rehiding boxes as we would hope.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]